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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:27 am
Posts: 105
I constantly see in this forum as well as many other locations (especially in relation to my brothers and sisters in the Bright religion)
the term "Leftist" and other seemingly related terms used as an insult. To me this as completely ridiculous as when the extremists of the left side (the SJWs) spit out the terms "white" and "man" out as insults. The thought that any of these things as being insults is laughable to me.

However, I know many people and judging from some of the posts on this forum (as well as many other places) cannot see how a socialist mindset works. and more specifically how the socialist mindset fits very well within the traditions of Asatru(/whatever you wanna call it).

I thought that I, an American, a socialist, and a Pagan from birth, have a very unique ability to talk on this. If anyone has a question, I'd love to have a nice conversation. Maybe I'll change your mind, maybe you'll change mine.

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TL;DR - It is your responsibility to take care of your tribe, and it is your tribes responsibility to take care of you.

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Google define Tribe : a social division in a traditional society consisting of families or communities linked by social, economic, religious, or blood ties, with a common culture and dialect, typically having a recognized leader.

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The tribes of the humans of Midgard are 4 fold. These tribes are as follows from largest to smallest: Human species / Country(/community) / Religion / Family.

In the past our territories were smaller there was no difference between Country as a whole, and community. That is obviously no longer the case, but where some seek to divide us into tiny tribes of a handful per area, Others see sub-tribes. I am an american, but also from the state _________, with its own traditions, festivals, etc. I am also of the _______ race. This comes with its own connections and traditions holidays, and so on. I am a follower of the Forn Seidr, which as you all are aware has its own beliefs and customs. I am a husband, which has very many rules and customs for sure!

however, regardless of which tribe/sub-tribes I belong to, it does not negate the others. Each of the different tribes I belong to, I bring my knowledge and values, who I am and who I try to be.

These do NOT have to be destructive to one another, but can become even greater when looked at and acted upon in a positive and mutually beneficial manner.


So again, feel free to ask anything here on this topic, I will try to check here more frequently.


Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:36 pm
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The Odin Brotherhood existed for centuries before "socialism," "communism," "capitalism," "fascism," "liberalism," and other "isms" existed, and the odin Brotherhood will exist long after all such "isms" have perished.

All "isms" are for herds. We hunt as individuals.


Thu Apr 06, 2017 11:55 pm
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Well, as I said I am a part of many tribes. I am proud of them all. A lone wolf cannot survive for long, they need a pack to thrive. even If you swear off your human tribes, to be sworn to the gods or anything else, means you do not hunt alone.

To hunt alone is to be without friends, family, gods, ancestors, and everything else. No brotherhood may be a brotherhood if there is only one member.


Fri Apr 07, 2017 12:06 am
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I grew up in a Republican southern family, but I used to believe that all the world could learn to live together in peace and harmony. I used to believe that all the myriad of tribes, cultures and traditions could be preserved even without borders and lines drawn in he sand. The concept of universal socialism has a nice ring to it, but there is a dark side that is well hidden beneath a shiny gold plating. History repeats itself, and we are seeing that repetition now. The people selling you these bleeding heart, humanitarian, utopian dreams are not friends of the people. They serve their own interests, and by installing an increasingly more socialist system, they make serfs of us all, by making us dependent upon the hand that feeds us.
I have witnessed first hand what socialism and welfare do to people. They do not learn to be self reliant, but rather to expect someone else to take care of them and solve all their problems while doing as little as possible for themselves.
People become complacent, lazy and decadent, as they don't have to face the immediate realities at under a monetary system, everything comes with a price. It's easy to ignore the growing bubble of debt when you have it in your mind that someone else will take care of it for you.
This pattern can easily be observed in socialist nations or states where workers, knowing their basic needs will be met by the management of the state, and that their employer cannot so easily let them go, do the minimum amount of work. They take no pride in their work or craft, have no work ethic, but have very high wage expectations.
On the contrary, in states such as Idaho in small towns where one is lucky to have a job, the people take greater pride in heir craft, they go the extra mile, because they see that the fate of the company and their own are closely intertwined. They see that it is in their own best interests for the company to do well.
Granted, there are exceptions to every rule, but the point still stands.
If you think a nanny state is the solution, have a look at all the university babies holding cry ins when they don't get their way, destroying private and public property, as if at makes any statement other than the fact that they are children throwing tantrums. Look to communist Russia, East Germany, etc, etc.
I doubt anyone here is opposed to caring for their communities and extended family where deserving, but the fact is, the human race is not one tribe. Certainly, there are things that affect us all, such as environmental issues, etc, but when it comes to the daily concerns, we are not all one tribe. If that were true, you would not see natural, voluntary segregation by various ethnic groups within one state, nation, city, etc. I see blacks willingly living in predominantly black communities, Lithuanians who mostly only live amongst other Lithuanians and other Eastern Europeans, Mexicans in the states live amongst other Mexicans, Turks in Germany stick together and take over whole city blocks, etc, etc. This is the nature of humanity, and no amount of social engineering is going to irrevocably alter human nature. Of course, tptb know this, so their goal is to mix us to the point that all races have blended into one bland and boring flavour, with no roots, no culture, no traditions, nothing to make us all unique. Just conforming slaves.


Imagine"

Imagine there's no heaven
It's easy if you try
No hell below us
Above us only sky
Imagine all the people
Living for today... Aha-ah...

Imagine there's no countries
It isn't hard to do
Nothing to kill or die for
And no religion, too
Imagine all the people
Living life in peace... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will be as one

Imagine no possessions
I wonder if you can
No need for greed or hunger
A brotherhood of man
Imagine all the people
Sharing all the world... You...

You may say I'm a dreamer
But I'm not the only one
I hope someday you'll join us
And the world will live as one


As a young, naïve and idealistic young girl, I admit, this song sounded like such a beautiful dream. But now as a mature woman with a fair amount of life experience and perspective, this sounds like a horrible nightmare. No more gods. No more ancestors, because how can you honour your ancestors when you no longer know who they are. No more diversity, no culture, no traditions that make the world vibrant and alive! Nothing to die for means nothing to live for. If you have nothing to die for, then you must not have children to love, parents and grandparents you adore, husbands and wives, friends and family who make your life worth living. If you have any of these things, there will never be a world in which bad people will not attempt to harm someone you love.
Don't get me wrong. I. Would love to see a way to safeguard people's basic needs in a balanced sort of way, such as employers paying benefits, or basic healthcare. The problem is that when you offer such social programs, like healthcare, to non citizens/residents who make up the taxpayers who pay for those programs, you will ultimately bankrupt the system, thus screwing over all the millions of workers who paid into the pot for their own welfare and that of their families, and by extension, their nation. Millions of immigrants living off those benefits while giving nothing back are not part of that nation and tribe. The are a guest who outstays his welcome or fails to contribute to the whole.
This is why globalism cannot work. Even nations struggle to function efficiently, as the power of the people is handed over to a small group of unaccountable individuals pursuing their own motives. The united states is a perfect example of a nation that should have dissolved ages ago into smaller nation states, because it is a people divided. Americans are not one people. They are many tribes in many states living under a federal banner that must suppress the individual tribes in order to force them all to "coexist". It is declawing the beasts to make them weak and powerless to fight for their own best interests.

I don't have a problem with a person who holds left ideals and values so long as that person can accept and realize that not everyone wants the same thing, and respect the wishes of those with differing values. But how can we ever please everyone when we are forced to live under one big federal government that tries to force us to all take the same medicine? I'd much rather see such policies as social welfare, etc be issued on a state to state basis, where those policies can be specifically catered to meet the needs of these smaller communities/tribes. For example, what people in California want or need is quite different from what folk in Idaho want and need. Different ways of life make for different needs. Rural folk are typically much more self reliant than city folk, and they do not have as much tolerance or sympathy for those who will do nothing to help themselves. I can respect that, and wholeheartedly agree with that mindset. Why should the fruit of my labours be taken from me and redistributed to those who won't do anything for themselves, let alone others? Why should I work hard, while others do little to nothing and reap all the same benefits as myself? If you think that human nature is immune to such laziness, then you must be blind to the world around you.


Fri Apr 07, 2017 8:49 am
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And another thing. There seems to be some misconception as to what a tribe is. A tribe is not a group of people who all come together by mere chance and without any conscious choice in the matter. A tribe is a group of individuals, who out of necessity and survival, have chosen one another. It is a group of people who cooperate in their efforts for the benefit of the whole, but in a tribe, if an able bodied person is not making a fair contribution to the whole tribe, or violate the tribes laws and customs, they are banished at best, and killed at worst. Sure, they take care of their elderly and the weak members of the tribe, for the elders have done their fair share throughout their lifetimes, and the weak cannot be expected to perform to the same standards as the rest. But you'd be lying to yourself to believe the tribes of old would have welcomed with open arms all the weak, ailing, poor souls that should find their way to the tribes gates. Caring for their own, sure, but not for the weak and outcastes of other tribes.
Why then must we be expected in our modern world to accept all the outcastes from the rest of the world into our nations? We do well enough to live in relative harmony with the people of our own nations as it is. Why allow a passive invasion to come in and help themselves to all that we have achieved for ourselves? You know, we see these refugees all over the place where we live, all wearing designer clothing and some driving expensive cars that few Germans can even afford. Why should these people be better dressed and cared for at our expense, than we are ourselves when we work for a living?
Most of these people never even enter the workforce, they never integrate. They isolate themselves within the host nation until they bleed the host dry.
Now yo have erdogan telling Turkish immigrants in Europe to not stop with having just 3 babies, but to have at least 5 and to replace the native populations of the host nations, saying Europe is theirs for the taking! To make this outrage all the worse is the knowledge of a secret deal made by erdogan, Angela Merkel and the former EU President to force Europe to continue to take in massive amounts of Muslim immigrants long after the refugee crisis comes to an end! These so called Europeans selling out their own people to the interests of the Turkish leader and the Z-ionist, M-arxist agendas.
This is why the so called "right" are angry, why they are sick of leftist policies that put outsiders before their own folk, and destroy their own cultures and societies in the process. Tolerating intolerance does not make one a good person. It makes one a cowardly fool.

This is why people in the US, and Europe are voting for right wing politicians, like Trump. For all their probable faults, these politicians are the only ones who seem to be listening to this ostracized voter base, who often make up more or less, half the population of any given country. When establishment hacks sell these people out, it will drive them to vote consistently more to the extreme right of the political spectrum, in hopes of finding someone with enough ***** to stick to their promises. And the more the status quo calls anything that disagrees with them "populist", "far right extremism", "racist" and "intolerant", while ignoring the very real concerns of these folk, the deeper they drive the wedge of divide, and in doing so, force this ignored group to resort to ever more extreme means to make themselves heard. It truly is a fight for survival that has yet to reach its most desperate conditions. The time will come when many on the left will have their eyes forcibly opened to the horrors they are complicity bringing down upon themselves and their nations. Then they will turn to those on the right who had been saying it all along and beg what is to be done?!


Fri Apr 07, 2017 9:21 am
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There are good and evil possibilities regardless of systems of government, Extremes always lead to destruction. What matters is making sure (to the best of your ability) that the people we place in power positions are good people. By good (in factual ways, not opinion based good) I mean they put the what is best for as many people are possible above all else. That doesn't mean there would be no war (for example) because good and evil are always fighting in some way.

Right now in the US we have the most un-socialist peoples in power, and they are doing just what you are saying is the danger of socialism. They are serving their own goals and anyone who doesn't fit within their tax bracket is just a casualty.

There are many who take advantage of social programs in america (like foodstamps for example). and while there will always be some people who do that, that is more of a result of a bad upbringing than the existence of the social programs.

My husband is from Venezuela, his birth-country is often referenced in arguments against socialism (which it is under dictatorial regime NOT socialism, but that's an topic for another time). The counter argument/examples are literally all the Scandinavian (which grew from the minds of the people who's religion we seek to follow) countries. These arguments can go back and forth because ultimately it is the nature, the goodness or badness of those in power, that determines whether or not that power is used to help better the people or to only better those in power.

This in the Western world is a problem, we simply accept as part of life that those we place in power are liars, bad, and solely self serving. The people just accept that to be true. But in other places that is not the case. When leaders in Iceland were found to be corrupt the entire country came out to remove them from power.

You keep coming up with examples of how people are lazy and unethically take advantage of situations meant to protect or help people. But this is not a result of those programs being bad, it is a result of a lack of a good moral upbringing. Some of the hardest working people i know are from the Scandinavian socialist countries.

it is true that when people live in comfort they can easily become oblivious to the hard truths of the world, but that is only if they are not taught them by those around them. However there is no difference in blindness to the hardships of the world by the extremely rich and those who abuse the systems. ("A small loan of $1,000,000" is a good example of that)

To be grateful and honest, and hardworking are traits that are instilled from an early age in life, which constantly brings up back to learning to be a good person. It is a choice of the individual to be honest or dishonest. Those traits and choices are independent from any body of government

This natural self-segregation has been very heavily studied by many many people, it is very understandable for sure when your subtribe and your larger tribe are taught to be in conflict, and there is a natural desire to be around others who you feel with share your mindset/plight.

However these are very often largely illusions, Many here in america (especially from the super rural/less educated regions as where I grew up) are convinced that the Affordable Care Act, an early socialist health program (on the way to single payer) set forth by the Obama administration, is entirely different from its colloquial name "Obamacare". To try to convince these people that the ACA and Obamacare are the same thing is nearly impossible, yet these are the same people who are voting away their only chance for healthcare because they have been caught up in an illusory battle. These are miners and farmers and people who still live off the land in Kentucky, West Virginia, the Appalachians, on and on. tricked to vote against their own well being. Largely because of race and old propaganda based ideologies. I was told in a group of people that the republicans put out the ACA and Obamacare is just "Obama helping the blacks over the whites".

These are almost always illusory battles to pit the people against the people instead of seeing what the corrupted powerful are doing.

Humanity itself is a tribe of tribes, especially in the world today, what impacts one country, impacts all.

I personally have never understood the ideas of "my race, my ancestors" thing from a pagan mindset. especially if you claim to believe in reincarnation. Do people who believe in reincarnation truly believe that they have been any one race for millennia upon millennia? how special they must be to never need to see from another perspective. Personally while I don't particularly care a great deal about past lives, I have experienced a few visions of a couple of them, and the first one I have ever seen I was a black old woman (which I am neither black nor a woman in this life)

Honor your ancestors, but you have not always been born into the bloodline you are in now, do you ignore those ancestors, from your black, white, asian, native american, indian, arab, latino, on and on, do you ignore them? or do you believe to have been a __________ race born person for every life you have ever lived?

Personally I feel that the social programs in america would be changed heavily for the better if the following where done:

1. Taxes were based on purchases rather than "income". That way a person/family would be taxed on what they could afford. In the current system the richest among us are not required to pay taxes on virtually anything because of how "income" is defined and the many loopholes benefiting them

2. Healthcare is universal. See Canada/Scandinavia. I have personally been in situations in my life where I was choosing to die rather to go to a hospital because of the cost, if I did not know a healer I most certainly would have died. When I did go to a hospital and was given an itemized version of my bill, 1 pill that cost the hospital $0.03 cents cost me $15.

3. "Free" Education. a peoples are easily controlled and enslaved if held down with a lack of education.

To respond to your note of immigrants and taxes etc. I do not know of any immigrant who does not pay taxes (and I do know many immigrants), even illegal immigrants can have a tax number by which they file taxes (called an E.I.N.)

You continue to note that there are people who would and do abuse the system, this is true and will always be true. but there are people who will drown you, that doesn't mean that you get rid of water, it means you get rid of the people who drown you.

Outside of wars (small and large scale), there is no longer a need to chose a group in order to survive. The world is no longer a kill or be killed world, (again outside of wars).

I am in no way saying to not protect and defend yourself your family your home or your traditions, but there is no more harm in going to the Pagan harvests festivals by non-Pagans than there is for us to go to an Abahamic festival, we do not have to abandon who and what we are to find value in others.

The problem lies in the people who would force others to do as they do. But that again comes from being a good or bad up bringing.

I do not deny that there are bad people, people who would and do abuse the system, but that does not mean the system is trash. it may need to be corrected, but to throw something good out because there are those who have figured a way to do bad with it is shooting yourself in the foot because a fly landed on it to get rid of the fly.

My personal feelings of the Abrahamic religions are that they are a cancer on the planet. But there are people who are not extremists in those three religions, and instead seek to use the good in them and not adhere to the baseless destructive. How could anyone hate Mother Theresa.
and we cannot deny that for hundreds and hundreds of years our ancestors were likely christian (in america anyway). That doesn't mean that the threats the Abrahamic religions present isn't real and shouldn't be handled in a real way though. but if you think Trump and his followers are on your side my good Pagan sister you are vastly mistaken. you are as outside to them as the others. With the extremists in the monotheistic religions, you are either on the correct side, or not. I agree with you that people have been blind to those threats, and that great harm has came from that blindness, but do not believe yourself to see. We are a 3rd group caught in between of 2 fighting brothers. We side with one more than the other, but the christians did do us what they themselves are afraid of happening to them.

The answer doesn't need to be "kill or be killed" that will only lead to more killing. Learning to find value in someone who thinks differently than you will cause you to grow. Odin himself says that only those widely traveled are wise.

Only a fool tolerates intolerance, this is true. But only the intolerant seek refuge or destruction for that which is different.


To be too merciful is to allow evil to go unchecked, to be too severe is to become evil itself


The balanced way is best.


Fri Apr 07, 2017 7:54 pm
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I've never heard these arguments before....

-Whites shouldn't care about their race.

Please don't pretend like you were saying anything else, because that's all many of us are hearing. Of course, I bet you've never said anything similar to a member of another race. And if you did you would have found out real quick why that is a ridiculous or even dangerous idea. Your usage of "pagan mindset" is nothing more than an example of appropriating what is not yours to appropriate and weaponizing it in an attempt to implant a subversive idea. You are implying that anyone that understands the ideas of "my race, my ancestors" (as you admitted you do not) is not of a "pagan mindset". You did the very same thing in your next point about reincarnation.

-Canada/Scandinavia blah blah blah....

The Canadian health care system is for the most part nothing a country should really look up to for a great example, and certainly not pertaining to your drug dilemma. Sorry to say, but your $15 pill, in Canada would still be $15. Actually it would be $20.11 as of the time of the writing of this post. In the case of either Scandinavia or Canada the effects of unmitigated immigration is only beginning to take shape.

-Globalism is great, diversity is our strength

We are all human, we all breathe the color clear, let's hold hands and sing Kumbaya. Everyone is the same, but at the same time divided by "identity". We should be happy to see our culture "enriched", but whites have no culture, and we couldn't get white people to clean our toilets so we need brown people, but we're anti-racist too, but **** white people, and black lives matter and **** corporations and like my facebook page using your iphone unlocked with your fingerprint. Wait, which sign am I supposed to be holding? Kill the Kulaks? Oh, right. I was still holding "It's empowering to kill babies".

-Only a fool tolerates intolerance?

Why don't you just come out and say it? You want to screw my wife and make me watch. I don't think Fand was referring to the same intolerance that you are...

-Free education

Define "education".

We won't even get onto the point about what right you have to force me to give up the fruits of my labour to anyone I do not specifically choose to help....And let's never mind the inevitable mass graves.

The rest of what you have written is anecdotal non-sequitur at best. Shall I start reading off death rolls? How about just numbers?

On the other hand, I think your idea about taxes is interesting, albeit probably ill conceived. I like the idea behind it, but the result would likely be pricing most people out of the market of anything. The effect would be an even greater "inequity".

PS: I know I sound abrasive, and I am not attacking you personally, even the one about screwing my wife :P. I am strictly intending to attack the ideas. The old, tired, blood soaked, raped to death ideas. Many of us are not having any of it. Once you can understand that the point is to wipe out Europeans as a distinct sub-species (race), and that there is a distinct entity (however defined) that is organized to bring this about, many many many many things about history, politics, current events, religion and society become clear. Instead of individual events, ideas, conflicting stories and "mysteries", a grand picture comes into focus. It's not about hate, it's not about irrational fear. It's about love of our people. Why is that so evil?

Stigandr Melrakki
The Wanderer, White Fox


Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:26 am
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That is the farthest thing from what I am saying Stigand, there is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are. In my original post you will notice that race was included in the many different tribe/subtribe list I mentioned. While it is perfectly good to be proud of who you are, to think that you are superior to anyone else because of skin color would be inaccurate, which was my only point. Be proud of who you are, and love your ancestors, but you have been many things and they did not all look, talk, or think like you do now.

Suppose a pill cost $15 canadian/american, in a socialist country like Canada, those basic health needs are paid for by taxes, where as here that is passed onto the person directly. Although in general medications are cheaper in countries like Canada for example.

I understand what you mean by "whites don't have a culture" (in America), but culture is more often regionally based, in addition to other things like family traditions, music, and a few other things. So While white American's may have less of a rich culture than the Danish for example, it is more in relation to the largeness of the country we live in. We here in America have a growing culture. We have a few common cultural traditions, like national holidays like thanksgiving, the 4th of July, veterans day, and so on. In general the cultural music of white people in America has been the country genre, although that has been expanded for a very long time to include other genres, country is still predominantly a white cultural music in America. Culture is very different depending where you live here as well. I grew up in the country, you could leave your door open all night and not feel the slightest bit threatened.

Because our country is still very new we are still developing culture here. Because of that we tend to look back to our pre-American ancestors for ideas and culture. Although not many held held onto old customs when immigrating here, you still see it strongly in the Italians, or (some) Irish, the Pennsylvania-Dutch have heavily held onto their cultural ideas etc.

I always suggest getting a DNA test done, its interesting to see what all went into to making you who you are genealogy-wise.

Well I am not sure what intolerance Fand was referring to, but the intolerance I was referring to is someone who can not be tolerant to someone who is peacefully co-existing around them. It isn't the same if they are attacking you, but if they are living peacefully, and letting you do the same, why not tolerate who they are, and go beyond that and find the good in who they are.

Free Education, as I see it would be education through college. To keep someone ignorant is to enslave their minds and livelihoods.

I don't find you abrasive. Although I disagree about the goal of whoever the "other" trying to wipe out the European. Unless by "European" you mean a specific way of life. but you seem to mean "white" when you say that. I am white myself. but do not see any large scale group attempting to wipe out white people, only people who are different than them in ideology, regardless of skin color.

There will always be small groups who do crazy things. There are black people who say all white people are evil and trying to wipe them out, and white people who say black people are trying to wipe them out. Every race and creed has their own hate group, but that doesn't make them right.

I know a woman (white) who told her granddaughter (white) that she could not marry her (latino) fiance because their DNA is incompatible and she would never be able to have a child for that reason. Several decades ago there was a rumor in the black communities that white people were putting chemicals in chicken to make black men's penises fall off. Neither of which are true clearly.

I am very proud of my people, I don't see any reason to not see the good in myself or the good my people have done, but I can also see the goodness in other peoples, and the value they bring in the world.

Your concerns sound more to be (as Fand's seemed) out of what could happen if bad people were to seize power and use that power against you (the general you) in some way. These are valid fears and those in power should be heavily monitored in their use of the powers assigned to them. But all we can do is to try our best to vote for those who we believe to have the best in mind.

As I said in my original post, I believe it is the job of a country's people to take care of their country, and that it is the responsibility of that country to take care of its peoples.


Sat Apr 08, 2017 4:33 am
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Vitki wrote:
That is the farthest thing from what I am saying Stigand, there is nothing wrong with being proud of who you are. In my original post you will notice that race was included in the many different tribe/subtribe list I mentioned. While it is perfectly good to be proud of who you are, to think that you are superior to anyone else because of skin color would be inaccurate, which was my only point. Be proud of who you are, and love your ancestors, but you have been many things and they did not all look, talk, or think like you do now.


Again, you appropriated the concept, one of which you admitted yourself you don't understand, and then made a grand claim about the very nature of others' beliefs and the nature of reality, weaponized it and used it to dismiss the concept you weaponized yourself. Straw man at it's finest.

Quote:
Suppose a pill cost $15 canadian/american, in a socialist country like Canada, those basic health needs are paid for by taxes, where as here that is passed onto the person directly. Although in general medications are cheaper in countries like Canada for example.


This is not true in the slightest. Your $15 pill would still be $15 in Canada. Drugs are not paid for by taxes. Unless you are talking about the special categories of unemployed people in Canada that get everything for free at the expense of every employed individual in the country, which is a prime example of the theft of wealth by socialists.

Quote:
I understand what you mean by "whites don't have a culture" (in America), but culture is more often regionally based, in addition to other things like family traditions, music, and a few other things. So While white American's may have less of a rich culture than the Danish for example, it is more in relation to the largeness of the country we live in. We here in America have a growing culture. We have a few common cultural traditions, like national holidays like thanksgiving, the 4th of July, veterans day, and so on. In general the cultural music of white people in America has been the country genre, although that has been expanded for a very long time to include other genres, country is still predominantly a white cultural music in America. Culture is very different depending where you live here as well. I grew up in the country, you could leave your door open all night and not feel the slightest bit threatened.


I wasn't saying whites don't have culture, and you are the only one playing "cultural relativist" here. You could leave your door open all night? And why was that? What conditions were present that allowed you to do that? Go to "any" non-european country where we are forced to take immigrants from, and leave your door open all night. I dare you.

Quote:
Because our country is still very new we are still developing culture here. Because of that we tend to look back to our pre-American ancestors for ideas and culture. Although not many held held onto old customs when immigrating here, you still see it strongly in the Italians, or (some) Irish, the Pennsylvania-Dutch have heavily held onto their cultural ideas etc.


So not many people held onto their culture, except for groups of people that you can call out specifically by identity and culture... Hmmm... Sounds like I've read more material by the founding fathers than you have, and I'm not even American.

Quote:
I always suggest getting a DNA test done, its interesting to see what all went into to making you who you are genealogy-wise.

DNA Tests: For entertainment purposes only. These companies should be forced to come clean on their algorithms and sample groups used to determine genetic composition. That and disclose their board of directors' political interests. Automatic allotment of certain genetic makeup based on political agenda. Wide ranging results for tests on the same people. I am interested in the idea of genetic testing, but they aren't good for much beyond entertainment right now. Like going to a psychic is typically perceived. Anecdotally, see the ABC and Inside Edition "studies".

Quote:
Well I am not sure what intolerance Fand was referring to, but the intolerance I was referring to is someone who can not be tolerant to someone who is peacefully co-existing around them. It isn't the same if they are attacking you, but if they are living peacefully, and letting you do the same, why not tolerate who they are, and go beyond that and find the good in who they are.


Candy and unicorns and a picture of the earth with stick people holding hands around the earth. YAY. Oh we feel so warm and fuzzy inside. There's no point in me arguing this one with you, because if you don't understand the statement "demography is destiny" then it's just wasted words.

Quote:
Free Education, as I see it would be education through college. To keep someone ignorant is to enslave their minds and livelihoods.

Yep, tax payer funded Socialist indoctrination. Of course, why WOULDN'T you want this? Tax payer funded "critical race theory", tax payer funded "women's studies", college applications with Black Lives Matter written 100 times accepted and tax payers to pay for it. Tax payer funded protesters, tax payer funded riots, tax payer funded "education".

Education is not as clear cut as it sounds. Leftists like to define themselves by the feel good principles they like to support, but they are simultaneously like stunned deer to the mostly hypocritical, largely clueless grasp on reality and history, or even the logistics of achieving those principles. Never mind whether Principle A is compatible with Principle B. See today's situation with Islam.

Quote:
I don't find you abrasive. Although I disagree about the goal of whoever the "other" trying to wipe out the European. Unless by "European" you mean a specific way of life. but you seem to mean "white" when you say that. I am white myself. but do not see any large scale group attempting to wipe out white people, only people who are different than them in ideology, regardless of skin color.


As much as I knew that's the belief you hold, it always makes me sad to hear it. You don't seem to understand the accepted definitions of genocide. Please read the UN definitions of genocide and pay particular attention to Article 2, clauses b, c, d and e. Understand that given the demographics of the planet, birth rates, abortion rates, immigration rates and political agenda forcing leftist ideals, that we are squarely in this territory. This should scare you.

Quote:
There will always be small groups who do crazy things. There are black people who say all white people are evil and trying to wipe them out, and white people who say black people are trying to wipe them out. Every race and creed has their own hate group, but that doesn't make them right.


All animals are equal, but some animals are more equal than others.

Quote:
I know a woman (white) who told her granddaughter (white) that she could not marry her (latino) fiance because their DNA is incompatible and she would never be able to have a child for that reason. Several decades ago there was a rumor in the black communities that white people were putting chemicals in chicken to make black men's penises fall off. Neither of which are true clearly.


Anecdotal examples of stupidity are not really adding anything to your points.

Quote:
I am very proud of my people, I don't see any reason to not see the good in myself or the good my people have done, but I can also see the goodness in other peoples, and the value they bring in the world.


Non-sequitur. Nobody is saying different people can't get along.

Quote:
Your concerns sound more to be (as Fand's seemed) out of what could happen if bad people were to seize power and use that power against you (the general you) in some way. These are valid fears and those in power should be heavily monitored in their use of the powers assigned to them. But all we can do is to try our best to vote for those who we believe to have the best in mind.


Look at what is going on today! We aren't talking about "what could happen" we are talking about "what is already starting to happen". If you agree they are valid fears and those in power should be heavily monitored, then would it be too much to ask for you to seriously look into these issues? Try to understand? If you are proud of your people and understand these are valid fears, then sorry for the profanity but what the ****!?

Quote:
As I said in my original post, I believe it is the job of a country's people to take care of their country, and that it is the responsibility of that country to take care of its peoples.

But you mis-attribute that to a social structure that has never before produced a viable society that anyone wants to live in when it inevitably turns to ashes.

Stigandr Melrakki
The Wanderer, White Fox


Sat Apr 08, 2017 1:13 pm
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Joined: Sat Mar 28, 2015 5:27 am
Posts: 105
I am confused at your first point. Do you claim that in all the lives you have ever lived, that you have always been a white man/women? If not, then we have no point of disagreement here.

As far as the medication thing goes maybe I should clarify that the medication I was referring to is medication that is administered by the hospital. the specific example of the medication I was given (that cost the hospital $0.03 that they charged me $15.00 for) was administered by the hospital. I am not referring to medications you go pick up from the pharmacy, I am referring to medications given to you while in the hospital.

"Pursuant to the Canada Health Act, all drugs administered in hospitals are fully funded by the provincial Medicare system" taken from Canada's Healthcare wiki https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Healthcare_in_Canada

I live in a city now and have first hand experienced that it is not possible to leave your door/car unlocked. I was trying to give an example about how culture is different based on where you live. The only person to ever break in to my things was a white guy, bad people are bad regardless of color/etc.

What is your point about the DNA tests? are you saying they are inaccurate? the National Georaphic DNA test is extremely scientific and can tell you the different ethnic types you have in your DNA. I agree that doing it is just for your own information by why is that a bad thing?

You are making a lot of assumptions about me based on me being a socialist. Personally I don't feel that religion should be talked about in any way in schools, or any specific world views outside of scientific and factual. You seem to think I am a tumblr-like social justice warrior but that isn't the case. I'm just a man who believes that healthcare and education should be a basic right provided by the country.

Are you saying that the people of the Scandinavian countries hate their system of governments? Do you believe they would prefer to give up their current system of healthcare and education?

In relation to your note about Article 2 outside of small groups, nothing is happening to target white people specifically, and these are is not occurring on a genocidal level.

a TLDR version of the article

2b: serious bodily or mental harm
2c: Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part
2d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
2e: Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

While these do occur (to every group), they are not (commonly) on a genocidal level, they are done by crazy extremists. Bad people, are bad regardless of race nation or creed.


It is clear that we are just not going to agree. And while I certainly don't mind the topic, there is nothing debate wise going on here when you respond with things like

"Candy and unicorns and a picture of the earth with stick people holding hands around the earth. YAY. Oh we feel so warm and fuzzy inside."

Present me with facts and scientific studies supporting your ideas. I would be very interested in reading scholarly sources to support your side of the political ideologies.


Sat Apr 08, 2017 5:35 pm
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:35 am
Posts: 561
Vitki wrote:
Quote:
I am confused at your first point. Do you claim that in all the lives you have ever lived, that you have always been a white man/women? If not, then we have no point of disagreement here.


What does this have to do with anything, one way or the other? We live in the here and now. Do you think if the tables were turned and blacks were the ones being systematically targeted for genocide that many of the white folk who are trying to make our people see reality would not also do the same for blacks, or any other race targeted for genocide?
And for the record, in all my past life regressions, I've never been shown any glimpses other than as a white female, although not always strictly human.

Quote:
I live in a city now and have first hand experienced that it is not possible to leave your door/car unlocked. I was trying to give an example about how culture is different based on where you live. The only person to ever break in to my things was a white guy, bad people are bad regardless of color/etc.


That has nothing to do with the culture of a race or religious nature. Urban settings are breeding ground for baseness, for degraded values and crime. Cities are expensive, attract a lot of riff raff, etc, etc.
You talk about Odin saying that one cannot be wise if he is not widely travelled. I wonder how much of the world you have truly experienced as anything other than a tourist on vacation. I personally, have travelled quoits a bit more than the average American or even German I've encountered. I've lived in three US states, spent time in several others, lived in Germany many years ago and am now living again in Germany. And I see the differences in this country between then and now, and it is not insignificant, even in the fairly small town and rural communities in which I am centered. I never used to have to watch my back in town, except in the Turkish parts of town, which everyone warned me to avoid. These days, I am constantly looking over my shoulder when I'm out on my own or just with my young daughter.
I've met plenty of people from many different countries, and I'm well aware some are decent people, but who's side are middle easterners going to take when their own numbers grow and their people begin turning on the host nation, as is already beginning? Erdogan, for example, is encouraging Turks to move into European countries have not 3 babies but 5 or more to raise their numbers, saying Europe is theirs for the taking! And the deal made in secret between former EU president, Merkel and erdogan to flood Europe with migrants long after the refugee crisis comes to an end — I suppose that's just more peace and love and hand holding going on there, right?
As for feelingsafe in your community, my hometown was a formerly small Florida town, which was an agricultural industry up until more recent years. It is split into two main parts. North and south. South of the tracks is still the hood. A white girl, or even a white boy, would be a damned fool to walk through that part of town, but no black person needed to feel threatened on the predominantly white side of town.
Next, there wasn't much need to lock our doors in the more northern parts of town.
Redneckville Idaho, hardly anyone bothered to lock their cars in town. Didn't need to lock your doors. Didn't need to be careful where you walked. Oh, there was crime, but it was mostly drug crime, and that was mostly isolated to the druggies. In a town where everyone knows everyone, people just don't go around robbing each other and violating others in their community. But here's the thing: this town was about as tribal as it gets in the US. Almost everyone was connected in some way shape or form. Marital and blood connections and all the extended connections that go along with it. Everyone knew everyone. Plus, there were only a handful of people of non white races, yet none of those people were treated with any kind of hostility. Go try living in a rural black town, if you are white and tell me that they welcome you and treat you with kindness.
You can't compare white homogeneous small towns with big cities. They are worlds apart. Even the town I grew up in doesn't compare to the totally white towns in Idaho, or even where my grandmother's family in Alabama come from. My home town is split in two groups. The closer one gets to the south side, the higher the crime rates go. And this in the day and age of affirmative action, special treatment given to so called minorities, favouring people of colour over whites in education, workplace, welfare, etc. By now, these people, at least the younger generations, should have been able to make great strides towards self improvement, but they haven't, not as a whole, anyway. So, I don't give a **** about what any cultural Marxists have to say — I don't want my money being redistributed to some other tribes, even if they live in the same country as me. If I want to give to someone, let me do it of my own free will, and I will gladly help those I deem worthy.

Quote:
What is your point about the DNA tests? are you saying they are inaccurate? the National Georaphic DNA test is extremely scientific and can tell you the different ethnic types you have in your DNA. I agree that doing it is just for your own information by why is that a bad thing?

Do you have reading comprehension issues? Yes, he was saying those DNA tests are fallible, at best.

Quote:
You are making a lot of assumptions about me based on me being a socialist. Personally I don't feel that religion should be talked about in any way in schools, or any specific world views outside of scientific and factual. You seem to think I am a tumblr-like social justice warrior but that isn't the case. I'm just a man who believes that healthcare and education should be a basic right provided by the country.

Tax paid "free" education sounds like a great idea, but it just turns into the government programming of good little slaves, so it isn't really such a good idea.

Quote:
Are you saying that the people of the Scandinavian countries hate their system of governments? Do you believe they would prefer to give up their current system of healthcare and education?

Any Scandinavian who cares about their own welfare and that of their own folk hate how their systems are being abused. Sure, we all like the idea of universal healthcare, but it is not sustainable if you flood your county with migrants who do not contribute to the pot! There has to be enough people working and paying taxes to make it work. So, either close borders to all except legitimate immigrants who apply for visas/residency by normal regulated means or do away with socialised healthcare. Personally, I'd prefer to keep healthcare, so no more handouts to guests who outstay their welcome.
Even the havamal touches on this subject of a guest who lingers too long in his hosts hall.

Quote:
In relation to your note about Article 2 outside of small groups, nothing is happening to target white people specifically, and these are is not occurring on a genocidal level.

a TLDR version of the article

2b: serious bodily or mental harm
2c: Deliberately inflicting on the group conditions of life calculated to bring about its physical
destruction in whole or in part
2d: Imposing measures intended to prevent births within the group
2e: Forcibly transferring children of the group to another group.

Actually, measures are being taken to reduce/prevent births amongst whites, destroying the family unit, and inflicting conditions to bring about destruction. But these this are being done largely on a passive, subliminal level. Through brainwashing in the school systems from early years up through college, to media means, etc, whites are being programmed to resist reproduction and raising families. It takes statistically a little over 2 babies per woman just to achieve population replacement. Statistics all across predominantly white nations are showing numbers much lower than that, and that is amongst citizens, not even necessarily taking into account whether those citizens are even of native European descent! So, there is plausible cause to suspect actual birthrates amongst whites to be substantially lower. But even the statistics given are too low, while damn near all other a ethnic groups have much higher birthrates, and continue to have high birthrates when they reside in white nations. Poverty, frozen wages, high cost of living — these are deliberately inflicted conditions that restrict birthrates and can cause bodily or mental harm and destruction in part or in whole. But it's hardly necessary to resort to death camps and brute force when it is possible to simply brainwash a people into genociding themselves by reduced birthrates, consuming toxic processed foods, chemicals in the water, air and food supply, vaccines, etc.



It is clear that we are just not going to agree. And while I certainly don't mind the topic, there is nothing debate wise going on here when you respond with things like



Quote:
Present me with facts and scientific studies supporting your ideas. I would be very interested in reading scholarly sources to support your side of the political ideologies
.

If I can spend years finding all the information and evidence to support my claims, so can you. No one is here to do your homework for you. If you can not look for arguments for all sides and weigh those arguments and whatever facts are presented, then nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. Learn how to think, not what to think. That's something no government backed school is ever going to teach. I may not have the power of fancy words and superb writing and speaking skills which serve to derail an opponent's arguments, but I am capable of amassing information from multiple sources and weighing the info and seeing the big picture.
If you would have asked me 10 years ago what I thought about all these topics we're discussing now, I would never have believed that I'd come to my present conclusions, as I used to have rather socialist leaning views, and believed multiculturalism was a nice idea, not realizing how it would really manifest.
These are not some far off, isolated issues. These are very real problems that are coming home to roost. America has been largely immune to the refugee crisis happening in Europe, so it is easy to believe it isn't so bad as some people are saying. Even here in Europe, unless people have witnessed the adverse effects of multiculturalism or heard of negative experiences by personal acquaintances, they turn a blind eye. Their political leaders tell them repeatedly that Europeans must accept the rise in terrorism. A true leader who serves his people would say, no ******* way! We are not going to tolerate terrorism, and we will not flood our lands with people who are fated to clash with our own people! But they don't do this, because these leaders are traitors! And what are the people supposed to do to traitors?


Sat Apr 08, 2017 9:38 pm
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Joined: Wed Dec 24, 2014 6:29 am
Posts: 132
Fand wrote:
If I can spend years finding all the information and evidence to support my claims, so can you. No one is here to do your homework for you. If you can not look for arguments for all sides and weigh those arguments and whatever facts are presented, then nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. Learn how to think, not what to think. That's something no government backed school is ever going to teach. I may not have the power of fancy words and superb writing and speaking skills which serve to derail an opponent's arguments, but I am capable of amassing information from multiple sources and weighing the info and seeing the big picture.
If you would have asked me 10 years ago what I thought about all these topics we're discussing now, I would never have believed that I'd come to my present conclusions, as I used to have rather socialist leaning views, and believed multiculturalism was a nice idea, not realizing how it would really manifest.
These are not some far off, isolated issues. These are very real problems that are coming home to roost. America has been largely immune to the refugee crisis happening in Europe, so it is easy to believe it isn't so bad as some people are saying. Even here in Europe, unless people have witnessed the adverse effects of multiculturalism or heard of negative experiences by personal acquaintances, they turn a blind eye. Their political leaders tell them repeatedly that Europeans must accept the rise in terrorism. A true leader who serves his people would say, no ******* way! We are not going to tolerate terrorism, and we will not flood our lands with people who are fated to clash with our own people! But they don't do this, because these leaders are traitors! And what are the people supposed to do to traitors?


This is an EXTREMELY important point, and really is the crux of the issue. People like us have spent years upon years upon years unwinding the web of deceit. Most people are only capable of regurgitating what they are spoon fed, regardless of what they believe. They want you to prove to them why they should think anything other than what they believe, rather than putting in the time, effort and hardship of thinking for themselves. They expect someone who has spent 10, 20+ years wading through the bog to convince them to change their core beliefs in under 500 words using one-liners and memes only, at the same time they have no intention on changing any of their beliefs and won't even really listen to you to begin with. Especially with ideologies that actually teach tactics to avoid, shut-down or manipulate legitimate debate.

The result is conversations like the above. They always end the same way.

Stigandr Melrakki
The Wanderer, White Fox


Sat Apr 08, 2017 11:09 pm
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Joined: Thu Mar 02, 2017 2:24 pm
Posts: 36
Yay circular arguments! Love them, used to have these debating fundie Muslims and Christians, fun times...
I'm not going to get into a debate on socialism but I wanted to wade in on one bit.


"Are you saying that the people of the Scandinavian countries hate their system of governments? Do you believe they would prefer to give up their current system of healthcare and education?"

You keep bringing up that the scandiwegean countries are happy successful places and we should all live like them...
Taking what works in a tiny country (by comparison to us by population) and applying it to a larger never works, it's far easier to keep the smaller population happy by far.
The cost of living in these places is shocking considering that wages aren't much different than the UK - a combo maccy d meal cost the equivalent of $11.55 and a coke is $3.42 in Norway!!
These countries also have natural resources that they prop up their economy with, norway gives their citizens a yearly dividend from the oil and gas industry! Hard to get annoyed at a government if they pay you extra lol that said the income tax rate of Scandinavian countries averages at around 30% and VAT is 25%.


"Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Till we work out some kind of Benevolent dictatorship we are kind of stuck with democracy, pure socialism has no chance (human nature always ruins it) and capitalism works to some degree till wealth inequality gets too high and the serfs revolt (lol).


Sun Apr 09, 2017 7:40 am
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:35 am
Posts: 561
Skygge wrote:
Yay circular arguments! Love them, used to have these debating fundie Muslims and Christians, fun times...
I'm not going to get into a debate on socialism but I wanted to wade in on one bit.


"Are you saying that the people of the Scandinavian countries hate their system of governments? Do you believe they would prefer to give up their current system of healthcare and education?"

You keep bringing up that the scandiwegean countries are happy successful places and we should all live like them...
Taking what works in a tiny country (by comparison to us by population) and applying it to a larger never works, it's far easier to keep the smaller population happy by far.
The cost of living in these places is shocking considering that wages aren't much different than the UK - a combo maccy d meal cost the equivalent of $11.55 and a coke is $3.42 in Norway!!
These countries also have natural resources that they prop up their economy with, norway gives their citizens a yearly dividend from the oil and gas industry! Hard to get annoyed at a government if they pay you extra lol that said the income tax rate of Scandinavian countries averages at around 30% and VAT is 25%.


"Winston Churchill said "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all those other forms that have been tried from time to time."
Till we work out some kind of Benevolent dictatorship we are kind of stuck with democracy, pure socialism has no chance (human nature always ruins it) and capitalism works to some degree till wealth inequality gets too high and the serfs revolt (lol).


Well said skygge.
The above quote of Winston Churchill reminds me of something the German Chancellor had to say in his book, discussing his years simply observing the whole political and social process of Austria and Germany at the time. He used to have great admiration for the model of English Parliament, and therefore thought it good that Germany had adopted this model. But over the years, sitting in on Austrian and German Parliaments, he came to the conclusion that such models of government in which the power is spread out amongst so many career politicians were awful. He said that due to this sort of political anonymity, no one could ever really be held accountable for bad decisions. Change always stagnated. He came to hate it. And I have to admit, he makes some very excellent points. I can totally understand why he believed that only a sort of dictatorship could ever really make any progress, whether good or bad.

He also formed the opinion that anyone under 30 should stay out of politics, because prior to that age, one cannot have truly developed a solid opinion on such things. He said a person should listen and learn, observe how things are done, study history to learn what had been tried and what worked and didn't work and why.
I don't see people watching and learning and think in for themselves. I see people being lazy and letting someone else tell them what to think, typically media, but also government and Soros backed schools. The university system is totally controlled and biased against anything that is not towing the Marxist line. This comes from the mouths of Republican and/or fundamentalist Christians. There is no tolerance in the universities for opposing views, no open debates and free speech, or not for everyone, at least.
"Free speech for the dumb."
"You can have it your own way if you do just what I say."
"Freedom is slavery", "War is Peace", "doublespeak, doublethink", "2+2=5! Say it, Watson!"

I don't know about the cost of living in Scandinavia but I have also heard it misery high. Germany's cost of living is rather high these days. It didn't t used to be. Wages for industry used to be higher, while cost of living was substantially lower. I lived here for two and a half years12 years ago, then came back. It is a huge difference!


Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:33 pm
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Joined: Thu Jul 28, 2016 6:35 am
Posts: 561
StigandrMelrakki wrote:
Fand wrote:
If I can spend years finding all the information and evidence to support my claims, so can you. No one is here to do your homework for you. If you can not look for arguments for all sides and weigh those arguments and whatever facts are presented, then nothing anyone here says is going to change your mind. Learn how to think, not what to think. That's something no government backed school is ever going to teach. I may not have the power of fancy words and superb writing and speaking skills which serve to derail an opponent's arguments, but I am capable of amassing information from multiple sources and weighing the info and seeing the big picture.
If you would have asked me 10 years ago what I thought about all these topics we're discussing now, I would never have believed that I'd come to my present conclusions, as I used to have rather socialist leaning views, and believed multiculturalism was a nice idea, not realizing how it would really manifest.
These are not some far off, isolated issues. These are very real problems that are coming home to roost. America has been largely immune to the refugee crisis happening in Europe, so it is easy to believe it isn't so bad as some people are saying. Even here in Europe, unless people have witnessed the adverse effects of multiculturalism or heard of negative experiences by personal acquaintances, they turn a blind eye. Their political leaders tell them repeatedly that Europeans must accept the rise in terrorism. A true leader who serves his people would say, no ******* way! We are not going to tolerate terrorism, and we will not flood our lands with people who are fated to clash with our own people! But they don't do this, because these leaders are traitors! And what are the people supposed to do to traitors?


This is an EXTREMELY important point, and really is the crux of the issue. People like us have spent years upon years upon years unwinding the web of deceit. Most people are only capable of regurgitating what they are spoon fed, regardless of what they believe. They want you to prove to them why they should think anything other than what they believe, rather than putting in the time, effort and hardship of thinking for themselves. They expect someone who has spent 10, 20+ years wading through the bog to convince them to change their core beliefs in under 500 words using one-liners and memes only, at the same time they have no intention on changing any of their beliefs and won't even really listen to you to begin with. Especially with ideologies that actually teach tactics to avoid, shut-down or manipulate legitimate debate.

The result is conversations like the above. They always end the same way.

Stigandr Melrakki
The Wanderer, White Fox


Thank you!
If I would have set my "opinions" in stone back in my teens to early twenties, I would have ended up being some far left progressive Marxist hippy chick! Thank gods I never had any regard for authority and always thought for myself, even if it meant to rebel against the many forms of thought control. I learned at a very hung age to question everything, including morals/ethics and to decide for myself, based on experience and observation, what made sense and what didn't. I went from growing up in the fundamentalist right wing extreme to exploring the far left extreme and everything in between. If you cannot see a matter from all sides, you cannot result know what side you're on. You cannot know your own mind.
A lot of people mistake me for a Republican, but I have just as little respect for that party as I do the Democratic party. Same goes for the comparable parties in German politics. Two sides of the same coin, playing entire nations for the fools they are!


Sun Apr 09, 2017 1:46 pm
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