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Odin and the Rise of Christianity. 
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Most of you know your history when it comes to the Christianization of northern Europe and Scandinavia. The Priests traveled north bearing the crucifix, and the Northerners responded with the hammer. The Red God Thor stood as the north's poster child for resistance to the White God Christ. The choice is an understandable one, as Thor is the most fearsome warrior among the Gods, though I thought it strange at first that Odin was not the God by which the people rallied behind. Now, I'm beginning to think maybe Odin would have had it that way. In all the stories, we see Odin with capable strategy and much more willing to use a keen mind before a strike. Part of me wonders if Odin didn't resist the spread of Christianity on purpose, for reasons yet to be revealed. I hope this doesn't come off as too "divine plan"- ish, but it's just a thought that came to me today I thought I'd share. I'd be interested to hear what some of you think.


Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:06 pm
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Filius Thula wrote:
Part of me wonders if Odin didn't resist the spread of Christianity on purpose, for reasons yet to be revealed.

I think this is entirely possible. Keep in mind that that Odin has a great deal of foresight. It is possible that he knows that Christianity is only a passing fad, a temporary nuisance. Also consider the possibility that because his concern is holding off Ragnarok for as long as possible, he could have allowed the rise of Christianity in the north to further that goal.

Filius Thula wrote:
I hope this doesn't come off as too "divine plan"- ish, but it's just a thought that came to me today I thought I'd share.

I would not worry too much about that, most here understand that Odin is not a omniscient, omnipotent, omnipresent god like the monotheistic religions. He does not have a predetermined plan for each of us, simply his divine strategy.


Fri Jun 20, 2014 11:51 pm
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From Tyrsman: "... Also consider the possibility that because his concern is holding off Ragnarok for as long as possible, he could have allowed the rise of Christianity in the north to further that goal. "


Tyrsman,
I am curious; why do you think that Odin allowing Christianity to rise would hold off Ragnarok?


Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:18 am
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autumnapples wrote:
Tyrsman,
I am curious; why do you think that Odin allowing Christianity to rise would hold off Ragnarok?

Personally I would not have the slightest clue. I only offered the hypothesis as a possibility.

Reflecting on it a little further I could see how an organization such as the Christian Church dominating europe could have a temporary stabilizing effect on things. An analogy would be if you were being chased by a pack of wolves that you KNOW will eventually catch and kill you, if you slay your horse and you might be able to delay the inevitable for a bit while the wolves stop for the meal you just have them. Again, I would never claim to have any insight into Odin's plan, I am just guessing at possibilities.


Sat Jun 21, 2014 3:36 am
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Tyrsman wrote:
autumnapples wrote:
Tyrsman,
I am curious; why do you think that Odin allowing Christianity to rise would hold off Ragnarok?

Personally I would not have the slightest clue. I only offered the hypothesis as a possibility.

Reflecting on it a little further I could see how an organization such as the Christian Church dominating europe could have a temporary stabilizing effect on things. An analogy would be if you were being chased by a pack of wolves that you KNOW will eventually catch and kill you, if you slay your horse and you might be able to delay the inevitable for a bit while the wolves stop for the meal you just have them. Again, I would never claim to have any insight into Odin's plan, I am just guessing at possibilities.


Nor would I ! :) but I appreciate your speculation... I have often wondered about why the pagan gods allowed the rise of christianity to happen... in your horse analogy, which I think is a good one, would it be fair to say that the wolves represent destiny?


Sat Jun 21, 2014 8:26 am
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autumnapples wrote:
...in your horse analogy, which I think is a good one, would it be fair to say that the wolves represent destiny?

Thank you. Exactly, the wolves represent Ragnarok, the inevitable.


Sat Jun 21, 2014 12:33 pm
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Thank you for the responses. I am further convinced in this theory when I think of how many Norse customs that began with honoring the Gods have stayed so engrained in our society. Days of the week, holidays, etc. Staying out of the forefront of peoples minds, but strongly fixed in the back of them. The Gods are certainly not stained in the wool of mainstream life for many people in modern society, but small subtleties show that they are present and refuse to be condemned to obscurity (perhaps waiting for a the right moment to rise to prominence again).


Sun Jun 22, 2014 12:24 am
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Tyrsman wrote:
autumnapples wrote:
Tyrsman,
I am curious; why do you think that Odin allowing Christianity to rise would hold off Ragnarok?

Personally I would not have the slightest clue. I only offered the hypothesis as a possibility.

Reflecting on it a little further I could see how an organization such as the Christian Church dominating europe could have a temporary stabilizing effect on things. An analogy would be if you were being chased by a pack of wolves that you KNOW will eventually catch and kill you, if you slay your horse and you might be able to delay the inevitable for a bit while the wolves stop for the meal you just have them. Again, I would never claim to have any insight into Odin's plan, I am just guessing at possibilities.


Another possibility is that Odin welcomes Ragnarok, because it will lead to the revival of his son Baldur. His own death, too, of course, but I think he'd consider it a small price.

Historically, though, one possible reason that Odin wasn't the rallying point would be because the Lombards (which is just Latinized "Long Beards") were known to revere Odin. The reason they were called long beards is because they believed Odin had a long beard and so all of the men wore long beards. Or that's one story. There are a few other similar stories about the name, but all center on their reverence for Odin.

Anyway, they were the first to fall. Charlemagne conquered them almost immediately after accepting the Pope's blessing and becoming the first officially Christian king. He then claimed them as his subjects and forced them to convert to Xianity under pain of death, thereby beginning the forced Xianization of Europe.


Tue Nov 18, 2014 1:47 pm
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There is also the possibility that it was beyond his control. The world is full of gods and Odin was hardly the only one around at that time, or today. There are "plans" or causes that each god champions and rivals those of his/her peers in the same pantheon, let alone conflicts between different pantheons.

Personally I do not think it was something they chose to happen, at least by way of advancing some greater goal. It appears to me that the conversion to Christianity was something they allowed to happen as a choice between them and the Christ-god and the resulting dark-ages of plague and famine were the manifestation of all the gods, whether Baltic or Germanic or Celtic, turning their backs on the people who turned their backs on them. Not necessarily a punishment, just a case of "this is what happens when we're not around". You got one god who is clearly not omnipotent and and not all powerful (and yet claims to be, much like Joseph Stalin or Hitler did with their cult of personality's) trying to control everything and failing quite spectacularly at it. There is also the possibility that they were forced out by the advancing tide of Christian power and the resulting dark-ages were a manifestation of the world under occupation, similar to France when it was occupied by Germany in WW2.

On that note, it may be useful to compare the rise of Christianity and the god behind it to the rise of Nazism and the man behind that. Perhaps Nazism and Stalinism are simply mortal incarnations of a greater, divine totalitarian order being enforced by the Christian God.


Wed Nov 19, 2014 8:55 am
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Filius Thula wrote:
Most of you know your history when it comes to the Christianization of northern Europe and Scandinavia. The Priests traveled north bearing the crucifix, and the Northerners responded with the hammer. The Red God Thor stood as the north's poster child for resistance to the White God Christ. The choice is an understandable one, as Thor is the most fearsome warrior among the Gods, though I thought it strange at first that Odin was not the God by which the people rallied behind. Now, I'm beginning to think maybe Odin would have had it that way. In all the stories, we see Odin with capable strategy and much more willing to use a keen mind before a strike. Part of me wonders if Odin didn't resist the spread of Christianity on purpose, for reasons yet to be revealed. I hope this doesn't come off as too "divine plan"- ish, but it's just a thought that came to me today I thought I'd share. I'd be interested to hear what some of you think.


I believe it was partly to do with the turning of the Ages. Odin knew that the Age of Pisces, being the weakest of the ages would not be served by waging more wars. So instead he took a rest and backed off, perhaps to allow the looming Ragnarok to be better prepared against?

It's the Age of the Water Bearer now, and I think the noise and voice of Odinism returning is just a part of the sign of Odin's Plan coming to fruition!


Fri Nov 28, 2014 1:26 pm
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Maybe the pagans of the time had already become very decadent, and so there was no point in trying to save them?

Better to let the entire matter fall to ashes and build it up again at a later time, fresh, and new?

If so, then the times we now live in are intresting indeed.


Sun Feb 22, 2015 7:07 pm
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From my reading, I note that Yahweh has 'been around' since approx C13 BCE, therefore he would be known to the Northern Gods and those of the other Pantheons. Xianity stems from the life and death of Jesus Christ.

To throw a cat amongst the pigeons - perhaps the Gods understimated the impact that this 'prophet' would have on the world? Or the lengths that Yahweh would go to to ensure his success?

I have thought about this concept and believe that the Gods and Goddesses, in particular Odin, perhaps concluded that even to their detriment, avoiding the inevitable (Ragnarok) was more favourable than 'reigning in' the petulent child (Yahweh)?

I also think that the resurgence in the beliefs of the Old Ways are perhaps because the Gods (of all Pantheons) have now concluded that the followers of all of the Abrahamic religions have gone too far. That the decadence, level of hatred, dishonor and disrespect, lack of concern for the earth and general apathy of the people globally are leading us quicker to Ragnarok than they anticipated.

If I am wrong, I stand corrected. It was a thought I have been dwelling on for some time ... I welcome comments. Storm


Sun Feb 22, 2015 11:39 pm
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8-j wrote:
Maybe the pagans of the time had already become very decadent, and so there was no point in trying to save them?

Let the sickness take those who are not strong enough to endure? That is very plausible.


Mon Feb 23, 2015 12:39 am
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The history isn't very well kept in the years leading up to the beginning of the wars between Xians and pagans (I imagine there may be a reason for this.) However, one of the last accomplishments of the pagans was the conquest of the city of Rome by the Lombards.

I wonder if maybe they became decadent because Rome infected them with its rot?

Anyway, it seems that everywhere the pagan armies were defeated, it was because someone on their own side betrayed them. It's like the missionaries went first, and recruited a sort of "fifth column", and then when the main invading army showed up, they found their opposition divided and weak. An easy kill. It really was a kind of rot.


Mon Feb 23, 2015 4:31 am
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Hey All,
Why not to rephrase this topic and say about the rise of islam (which some scientists believe is a radical sect of christianity)?
By the way, if talking about Gods - Northern, Christian, Wiccan, Celtic, etc. - can They unite in the battle against the demon? Many believes say about Ragnarok - the end of the world. Even Buddhist say about Maitreya who will come when the new world will be established.
I read some topics on the Forum, and looks like we are not facing Ragnarok yet, maybe, the beginning. And Gods are trying to push it further, to say - postpone it as much as possible.
AnDie.


Thu Mar 24, 2016 11:02 pm
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Eternal Dawn wrote:
European Jesus Christ is actually Balder. The actual Jesus was most likely a dark-haired dark-skinned short Jew. The tall, blonde, blue-eyed, handsome hero-like appearance of Christ is based on Balder. Balder, like Jesus, is the son of the all-father god. Balder, like Jesus, dies, and then is reborn, becoming the leader, and leading the cosmos into a golden age known as Gimle. Christmas, which is actually Yule, was originally based around the birth of Balder (and symbolically the return of the sun). Therefore, countless Christians actually worship the character of Balder, and not the actual Yeshua.


Eternal Dawn, hail this post!

I had a great discussion with a military Christian Padre, he was well versed in the Odinist views (I believe because deep down he is a Odinist), this discussion started off with me kind of attacking the Catholic faith and expressing my Odinist stance, he didn't get upset or defensive but threw a couple points at me that I didn't have a comeback for:
He asked me what if Ragnarok took place during the time of the Christian uprising, because the world figuratively ends as we knew it and it was the start of the dark ages. He believed that that *God* could possibly be the risen god Baldr, and this is why the Christian faith kept almost all of the pagan holidays and some of the same traditions, he also said the same thing as Eternal D about what Jesus would have looked like. The bible stories all kind of coincide with Ragnarok, the great flood with the Arc, the natural disaster, and the plagues. The point he was trying to get to was that we maybe worshiping the same God. He did believe that the Catholic Faith has been corrupted but greedy men trying to control the world then and now, because if the Holy Book is gospel he said then how are we on the tenth revision. His last point was the statement from the original texts, I am one god among many, and he believes if this was the first statement from the new God at the helm letting people know that the old Gods have left and the new reign of Gods are in place and not to worry.

I don't know but he was kind of excited to have a discussion with a true Odinist and he picked my brain and challenged my knowledge and he left he said pleased and I left like I was in a battle.

Could have the Greedy Christian Priest used the rise of Baldr to their own agenda's

No idea I personally don't think Ragnarok has happened but he had good points


Fri Apr 08, 2016 6:59 pm
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Please, keep this thread going- it's really fascinating. I suggest it be moved from "off topic" to "General".

I stated recently in another thread that the "dark ages" were a time when many of our people were forced by the sword to be separated from our gods to become thralls of the church.

However, the idea that it was perhaps a necessary sacrifice of many of our ancestors to stave off Ragnorak for the opportunity for our ancestral memory to get a few more good centuries of wisdom (even if it was under the condition of slavery), there may have been a greater long-term purpose for the oppression of most of the world's polytheistic faiths.

It's odd, but in my mind's eye- when I look at places like India and Japan who have kept to their old Gods and traditions, I can visualize a wall surrounding and protecting them from the outside...and the Native Americans and Aboriginals were able to practice their faiths without harm until the same groups that subjugated us, invaded them as well.

In a way, it's sort of as if a large bomb went off sometime after 1200 CE to the global consciousness and very few were protected allowing a political movement wearing the clothing of "Christian Catholicism" to swoop in and make slaves into us all.

Just like how the 1979 revolution to overthrow the decadence of Shah Reza in Iran accidentally resulted in a theocracy despite the fact that the citizens were seeking more freedoms instead of less. The Ayatollahs only gained power because they were the first group to offer organization in chaos.

The Christians offered to kill anyone who would not proclaim Christ as the "only God".

If Christ was truly the only God, then why would there have been any need to forcibly convert anyone? If there was only one God, then there would be no rules against the worship of other "fake" gods... It was fear of competition from a tiny little desert war God who people made powerful out of their fear of him.

There are some Christian theologeons who seem to see this as well... C.S. Lewis is a great example: He claimed that whomever lived life in dedication to morality would end up with a positive afterlife no matter what name they stated to call God. His Narnia series even depicted other Gods, but had Aslan as a mediator sort. There were Gods of the seas and trees in Narnia, Aslan was the son of a God who did not interact with creation, and creation itself was refered to as "The Emperor over the Seas"

http://narnia.wikia.com/wiki/Deity

Going further- the original, polytheistic roots of Zoroastrianism claimed there would be a time where the majority of the world would be worshiping Angra Mainyu (Ahriman-untruth) believing it to be Ahura Mazda (Ohrmazd-goodness).

Although "good" and "bad" are entirely subjective- some universal norms exist. The Zoroastrian faith, like our own practice, places emphasis on the protection of nature. The current obsessions of consumerism show clearly that most are not concerned indicating their prediction was accurate. The rest of their original pantheon is known as Yazata and Daeva's.

Our Gods claimed our world would be predicted to end by fire...but I do not see anything in our lore regarding our people being the cause of this except in the warning "humanity will fall into decadence" as a symptom. Perhaps, it is our Aryan ancestors who hold the story of what the actual spark that ignite Ragnorak: Razing everything to ash would be the only way to get rid of this anti-nature God's enslavement and imposed injury on the Earth...

Notice how the monotheistic end of times simply "ends" the world/s and everyone just goes to Heaven/Hell.
In polytheism, there is the cycle of renewal. They end because the hold of their God of terror and lies, ends?

Perhaps every natural religion in the world fits together like puzzle pieces. We have our Gods, the Shinto have theirs, as do the the Hindu and countless cultures of every size and custom....and each of us has the purpose of protecting our lands flora and fauna as the shamans and mystics the modern world call "insane".


Sat Apr 09, 2016 12:17 am
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Recently I was reading someone's blog online that suggested the reason Baldr went to Hel's domain when he died instead of going to Valhalla was because he was not a warrior. Loved by all except one giantess (perhaps Loki in disguise). But not a warrior.

Perhaps he really was the Prince of Peace. With a second coming fortold after Armageddon/Ragnarok. And the Christians are simply following a kind of mixed up, confused version of Baldr's plan after all?

Maybe Odin can't bring himself to fight them for that reason?


If Baldr and Hod are going to be in charge after Ragnarok, and Baldr is not a warrior, then I'm left to wonder what changes will be seen to the way of things?


Thu Apr 21, 2016 1:57 am
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(double post- delete please!)


Last edited by Tyrienne on Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:33 am, edited 1 time in total.



Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:32 am
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8-j wrote:
Recently I was reading someone's blog online that suggested the reason Baldr went to Hel's domain when he died instead of going to Valhalla was because he was not a warrior. Loved by all except one giantess (perhaps Loki in disguise). But not a warrior.

Perhaps he really was the Prince of Peace. With a second coming fortold after Armageddon/Ragnarok. And the Christians are simply following a kind of mixed up, confused version of Baldr's plan after all?

Maybe Odin can't bring himself to fight them for that reason?


If Baldr and Hod are going to be in charge after Ragnarok, and Baldr is not a warrior, then I'm left to wonder what changes will be seen to the way of things?


We will not be alive to see it, brother...for Surtr cleanses the worlds with fire and self-immolates...unless it already happened and this is after Ragnorak?


Thu Apr 21, 2016 2:33 am
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